Human Rights
033 Antonia and Daniella
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1. Mary: What about you Antonia, what's your barriers?
2. Antonia: Well there's, there's the practical barriers, access is one of them. And it's often very ... not well thought out. Like they'll be something like a lift for a disabled person, but then it will be locked, or it will be miles away from anywhere else, and they have to then walk all that way, go up in a lift and walk all the way back. And, sort of practical difficulties, and actually physically trying to like get into a building, or working as a teacher, having practical difficulties like all whiteboards are too high and, then the adjustments that are made are generally not a, not a hundred percent satisfactory. They need ... they're usually ones that have, instead of being thought out from the very beginning, could this, could this facility be used by anybody?
3. What's happened is, they do the facility for a person of a certain size and then they think afterwards, oh my God, we've got to fit in some people in wheelchairs and some people who might be a bit shorter, and some people who might have mobility difficulties, and then they add on something on the end, instead of thinking from the very beginning, what's the way where everybody can get.can use this?
4. And, inclusion is a big issue for disabled people, all disabled people want to be included in the world and don't want to be ... in fact they don't want to really be labelled disabled, they just want to be there, just another person who wants to be treated like everybody else. And, it's only the able bodied world that labels them as disabled.
5. And, being thoughtful around including people and including disabled people, and it sometimes means extra things have to be done to make sure that everybody can use that facility, but it's more of a mindset than a practical issue. But that is a barrier 'cause sometimes you feel you're really sort of put in the spotlight.
6. Like, if you're a disabled student in the class, you might have to sit at the front, or you might have to sit in a special chair every time, and you might not want to sit in that place every time, you might want to move around and sit with your friends. And, it's thinking that through and people are often trying to help, and it's great, and disabled people don't not appreciate their efforts, but sometimes it's misguided.
7. And, really, what disabled people want is to be able to do things for themselves and for people to have thought that through, not to have everybody stop and clear the aisles while this person comes through and everybody stares at you. Like, I know a friend who went to a museum and couldn't get to the top floor. And they said, oh, we've got this great disabled lift and, in front of about ten thousand people, or perhaps a thousand, he had to go in a lift, a see-through lift, and be elevated up while everybody watched, and he said it was just awful. He never went back to that museum, he just wished he'd never asked to see the top floor.
8. So he wasn't treated equally. He was treated in a, almost, humiliating way and I think that's, that's really important.
9. Daniela: Yeah I think the.I mean I always find it very difficult to find that balance in that, yes, obviously, not that you need help, but you need adjustments.
10. Antonia: Yes.
11. Daniela: But, then people either go to the extreme and make loads of adjustments and then you feel like a target.
12. Antonia: Yes.
13. Daniela: Or, they don't do anything because they think, right, oh, she wants to do it herself.
14. Antonia: Yes.
15. Daniela: And it's just trying to find that balance on how to be treated. Yes, you want to be treated like everyone else but, yeah, like everyone else, once in a while they need a bit of help or.
16. Antonia: Yes.
17. Daniela: ...but, you know, and it's that, I find that's a big issue.
18. Antonia: But I think it's not easy, because I know about disabled friends that I have, I sometimes make mistakes around them and say, do you want to do this? But I think as an able bodied person, the best thing you can do about a disabled person, is just ask, say, do you need a hand? And if they say, no thanks, just accept and go away and that's fine, but just ask in a way that you'd ask an able bodied friend, like can I give you a hand or, that bag looks heavy, would you like me to take it for you? And then, you know, like the good Samaritan, disappeared, he didn't hang round waiting to be thanked.
19. And that's another thing that I find about able bodied people. Somehow there's an issue that the disabled bodied person, the disabled person should be grateful and I don't really think that's appropriate. Not that they should be rude, but that, that they have a right to be treated, to have help and support to have an equal time.
20. Daniela: Yeah, it's that support isn't it?
21. Antonia: Yeah, it is.
22. Daniela: But it should be automatically there rather than having to ask for it.
23. Antonia: That's right, yeah, it should be there in place rather than you having to suddenly say, get to the loo and find you can't get in, and then go back. And I think people in wheelchairs, particularly, they must have to set off to go to the loo about half an hour before they want to go because ... in most buildings, because it's usually miles, you sometimes have to have a key, it's just, yeah.
24. Daniela: No, I mean it's even accessing public transport, you get these buses that go down but, having to actually ask the bus driver, it's [sighs], do you know what I mean, it's oh, an extra job for them to do, where it should be.
25. Antonia: Exactly.
26. Daniela: ...I think it's society's attitude to it.
27. Antonia: Should be seamless.
28. Daniela: ...that sort of ... it still makes it a barrier, you know, it.
29. Antonia: Yeah, and I know different.other countries it's different. I read an article about a woman who went to Canada and she was in a wheelchair. And she asked.she went there on sort of an exchange, and she explained she was in a wheelchair, and within two days they'd put on the right kind of bus, and she was just able to go around without any problem. So, it's obviously, you know, it's possible.
30. Daniela: Yeah, I think everything's possible isn't it?
31. Antonia: Yes.
32. Daniela: It's just to what degree do you have to ask for it to become possible, do you know what.
33. Antonia: Yeah.
34. Daniela: ...I mean? And that's when you sort of think, well, I don't want my disability ... this disability to become an issue.
35. Antonia: No.
36. Daniela: You know, so you, in a funny way, I.and I think this is a problem, I mean I don't know, I can't say for all disabled people, but it's like, you don't want to ask too much because then you make ... focusing on your disability. And then you sort of think, well, I won't ask too much, and then, I don't know, it.
37. Antonia: You lose out.
38. Daniela: Yeah, exactly.
39. Antonia: It's not fair. And you do want to be.
40. Daniela: Yeah, whatever you do there's no.
41. Antonia: No, there's no right solution, if you ask the whole time you feel you're labelled as a nuisance and that you're labelled very vigorously as a disabled person. But, if you don't ask, 'cause I know, I've been into shops sometimes and there's been something I wanted on a higher shelf. And I've looked around, and there's been nobody to ask, and sometimes I've just felt too tired and I've just gone out without the thing and ... because I just thought.
42. Daniela: Exactly.
43. Antonia: ...I just cannot engage at the moment.
44. Daniela: No.
45. Antonia: I cannot find someone and say, please, can you help me, blah, blah, blah or find the store and sometimes you just kind of ... and you do lose out. So.
46. Daniela: There is no other way is there?
47. Antonia: No.
48. Daniela: It's ... and I think that's where disabilities will always be seen rather than, you know, making it equal. There will always, whatever legislation's in place or whatever, there'll be that little bit that we can't do unfortunately because of our disability and not everyone can help or support us in that way. Like, going to supermarkets or, you know, they turn their heads.
49. Antonia: Yeah, but I can think of good things that supermarkets could do. They could have revolving shelves, they could do loads of different things if they really thought about it.
50. Daniela: Yeah, yeah.
51. Antonia: It's just ... and also because disabled people are such a small percentage, that's another difficulty.
52. Daniela: Yeah.
53. Antonia: They then think well, okay, they've got to spend so many X thousand having some technology to help a disabled person, and then they get one disabled customer in a week. But, it's still important to include everybody.
54. Daniela: I think the problem is because disabilities, there are so many varieties of them.
55. Antonia: Yeah, and that's another thing.
56. Daniela: ...of disabilities that, you know, it ... very much it was, you were either wheelchair bound, partially sighted or, you know, had problems with your hearing. And they were like the main three, and that's what, you know, people adapted to. But now it's like, yes, they acknowledge there are, you know, a variety and ... I mean I know myself, it's ... you can't do everything but...
57. Mary: Right, can I just come in? You mentioned ... you've mentioned lots about attitudes, you've mentioned very much about thinking through and so on. You also ... you mentioned a legislation, and you mentioned rights at work, so can we sort of hone in a little bit on that? I mean what's ... what part does legislation play, if you like, in your experiences? What part could it play and what legislation is there and, maybe also what legislation should there be?
58. I don't know, I mean obviously you're not legal experts but, from your own experiences and knowledge, what is there?
59. Antonia: Well my experience isn't very positive about legislation. I find that the Disability Discrimination Act, when people realised they had to take note of it, just made employers very anxious, and they were very worried about being ... like I went to a talk and the whole emphasis of the talk was how not to get sued by disabled people. And I was really angry and, I though this is really wrong, the whole point of the Disability Discrimination Act is to include people, to make society inclusive.
60. And so, it's not ... and disabled people are very unlikely to sue you, it's only if they're absolutely desperate that they'll sue you and ... so my experience hasn't been that great.
61. Daniela: No, and I think, how can I say, disabled people are more aware of the DDA than the actual ... the people who are meant to enforce it. So, you know, and you don't want to start waving your banner around.
62. Antonia: No.
63. Daniela: ...every time, you know, and have you done this, and have you done this, did you know it was a legal requirement? But it is in a way just there to put these enforcements into place. But, again, you ... it's more or less you have to find out about that than someone coming to you and saying, did you know you could have this? Did you know you could do that? You know, and that's ... I mean, yeah, it's accessible but no-one really know ... can access it.
64. Mary: Yeah, nobody owns it in a way, yeah.
65. Daniela: ...because ... yeah and no-one knows about it.
66. Antonia: Yeah, and that's usually the case, the employment, what happens is you do the job and then you find the things you can't do, and then they've had to think of ways round that.
67. Mary: Like you said, thinking too late.
68. Antonia: Yes.
69. Mary: ...thinking after, after the event really.
1. Mary: What about you Antonia, what's your barriers?
2. Antonia: Well there's, there's the practical barriers, access is one of them. And it's often very ... not well thought out. Like they'll be something like a lift for a disabled person, but then it will be locked, or it will be miles away from anywhere else, and they have to then walk all that way, go up in a lift and walk all the way back. And, sort of practical difficulties, and actually physically trying to like get into a building, or working as a teacher, having practical difficulties like all whiteboards are too high and, then the adjustments that are made are generally not a, not a hundred percent satisfactory. They need ... they're usually ones that have, instead of being thought out from the very beginning, could this, could this facility be used by anybody?
3. What's happened is, they do the facility for a person of a certain size and then they think afterwards, oh my God, we've got to fit in some people in wheelchairs and some people who might be a bit shorter, and some people who might have mobility difficulties, and then they add on something on the end, instead of thinking from the very beginning, what's the way where everybody can get.can use this?
4. And, inclusion is a big issue for disabled people, all disabled people want to be included in the world and don't want to be ... in fact they don't want to really be labelled disabled, they just want to be there, just another person who wants to be treated like everybody else. And, it's only the able bodied world that labels them as disabled.
5. And, being thoughtful around including people and including disabled people, and it sometimes means extra things have to be done to make sure that everybody can use that facility, but it's more of a mindset than a practical issue. But that is a barrier 'cause sometimes you feel you're really sort of put in the spotlight.
6. Like, if you're a disabled student in the class, you might have to sit at the front, or you might have to sit in a special chair every time, and you might not want to sit in that place every time, you might want to move around and sit with your friends. And, it's thinking that through and people are often trying to help, and it's great, and disabled people don't not appreciate their efforts, but sometimes it's misguided.
7. And, really, what disabled people want is to be able to do things for themselves and for people to have thought that through, not to have everybody stop and clear the aisles while this person comes through and everybody stares at you. Like, I know a friend who went to a museum and couldn't get to the top floor. And they said, oh, we've got this great disabled lift and, in front of about ten thousand people, or perhaps a thousand, he had to go in a lift, a see-through lift, and be elevated up while everybody watched, and he said it was just awful. He never went back to that museum, he just wished he'd never asked to see the top floor.
8. So he wasn't treated equally. He was treated in a, almost, humiliating way and I think that's, that's really important.
9. Daniela: Yeah I think the.I mean I always find it very difficult to find that balance in that, yes, obviously, not that you need help, but you need adjustments.
10. Antonia: Yes.
11. Daniela: But, then people either go to the extreme and make loads of adjustments and then you feel like a target.
12. Antonia: Yes.
13. Daniela: Or, they don't do anything because they think, right, oh, she wants to do it herself.
14. Antonia: Yes.
15. Daniela: And it's just trying to find that balance on how to be treated. Yes, you want to be treated like everyone else but, yeah, like everyone else, once in a while they need a bit of help or.
16. Antonia: Yes.
17. Daniela: ...but, you know, and it's that, I find that's a big issue.
18. Antonia: But I think it's not easy, because I know about disabled friends that I have, I sometimes make mistakes around them and say, do you want to do this? But I think as an able bodied person, the best thing you can do about a disabled person, is just ask, say, do you need a hand? And if they say, no thanks, just accept and go away and that's fine, but just ask in a way that you'd ask an able bodied friend, like can I give you a hand or, that bag looks heavy, would you like me to take it for you? And then, you know, like the good Samaritan, disappeared, he didn't hang round waiting to be thanked.
19. And that's another thing that I find about able bodied people. Somehow there's an issue that the disabled bodied person, the disabled person should be grateful and I don't really think that's appropriate. Not that they should be rude, but that, that they have a right to be treated, to have help and support to have an equal time.
20. Daniela: Yeah, it's that support isn't it?
21. Antonia: Yeah, it is.
22. Daniela: But it should be automatically there rather than having to ask for it.
23. Antonia: That's right, yeah, it should be there in place rather than you having to suddenly say, get to the loo and find you can't get in, and then go back. And I think people in wheelchairs, particularly, they must have to set off to go to the loo about half an hour before they want to go because ... in most buildings, because it's usually miles, you sometimes have to have a key, it's just, yeah.
24. Daniela: No, I mean it's even accessing public transport, you get these buses that go down but, having to actually ask the bus driver, it's [sighs], do you know what I mean, it's oh, an extra job for them to do, where it should be.
25. Antonia: Exactly.
26. Daniela: ...I think it's society's attitude to it.
27. Antonia: Should be seamless.
28. Daniela: ...that sort of ... it still makes it a barrier, you know, it.
29. Antonia: Yeah, and I know different.other countries it's different. I read an article about a woman who went to Canada and she was in a wheelchair. And she asked.she went there on sort of an exchange, and she explained she was in a wheelchair, and within two days they'd put on the right kind of bus, and she was just able to go around without any problem. So, it's obviously, you know, it's possible.
30. Daniela: Yeah, I think everything's possible isn't it?
31. Antonia: Yes.
32. Daniela: It's just to what degree do you have to ask for it to become possible, do you know what.
33. Antonia: Yeah.
34. Daniela: ...I mean? And that's when you sort of think, well, I don't want my disability ... this disability to become an issue.
35. Antonia: No.
36. Daniela: You know, so you, in a funny way, I.and I think this is a problem, I mean I don't know, I can't say for all disabled people, but it's like, you don't want to ask too much because then you make ... focusing on your disability. And then you sort of think, well, I won't ask too much, and then, I don't know, it.
37. Antonia: You lose out.
38. Daniela: Yeah, exactly.
39. Antonia: It's not fair. And you do want to be.
40. Daniela: Yeah, whatever you do there's no.
41. Antonia: No, there's no right solution, if you ask the whole time you feel you're labelled as a nuisance and that you're labelled very vigorously as a disabled person. But, if you don't ask, 'cause I know, I've been into shops sometimes and there's been something I wanted on a higher shelf. And I've looked around, and there's been nobody to ask, and sometimes I've just felt too tired and I've just gone out without the thing and ... because I just thought.
42. Daniela: Exactly.
43. Antonia: ...I just cannot engage at the moment.
44. Daniela: No.
45. Antonia: I cannot find someone and say, please, can you help me, blah, blah, blah or find the store and sometimes you just kind of ... and you do lose out. So.
46. Daniela: There is no other way is there?
47. Antonia: No.
48. Daniela: It's ... and I think that's where disabilities will always be seen rather than, you know, making it equal. There will always, whatever legislation's in place or whatever, there'll be that little bit that we can't do unfortunately because of our disability and not everyone can help or support us in that way. Like, going to supermarkets or, you know, they turn their heads.
49. Antonia: Yeah, but I can think of good things that supermarkets could do. They could have revolving shelves, they could do loads of different things if they really thought about it.
50. Daniela: Yeah, yeah.
51. Antonia: It's just ... and also because disabled people are such a small percentage, that's another difficulty.
52. Daniela: Yeah.
53. Antonia: They then think well, okay, they've got to spend so many X thousand having some technology to help a disabled person, and then they get one disabled customer in a week. But, it's still important to include everybody.
54. Daniela: I think the problem is because disabilities, there are so many varieties of them.
55. Antonia: Yeah, and that's another thing.
56. Daniela: ...of disabilities that, you know, it ... very much it was, you were either wheelchair bound, partially sighted or, you know, had problems with your hearing. And they were like the main three, and that's what, you know, people adapted to. But now it's like, yes, they acknowledge there are, you know, a variety and ... I mean I know myself, it's ... you can't do everything but...
57. Mary: Right, can I just come in? You mentioned ... you've mentioned lots about attitudes, you've mentioned very much about thinking through and so on. You also ... you mentioned a legislation, and you mentioned rights at work, so can we sort of hone in a little bit on that? I mean what's ... what part does legislation play, if you like, in your experiences? What part could it play and what legislation is there and, maybe also what legislation should there be?
58. I don't know, I mean obviously you're not legal experts but, from your own experiences and knowledge, what is there?
59. Antonia: Well my experience isn't very positive about legislation. I find that the Disability Discrimination Act, when people realised they had to take note of it, just made employers very anxious, and they were very worried about being ... like I went to a talk and the whole emphasis of the talk was how not to get sued by disabled people. And I was really angry and, I though this is really wrong, the whole point of the Disability Discrimination Act is to include people, to make society inclusive.
60. And so, it's not ... and disabled people are very unlikely to sue you, it's only if they're absolutely desperate that they'll sue you and ... so my experience hasn't been that great.
61. Daniela: No, and I think, how can I say, disabled people are more aware of the DDA than the actual ... the people who are meant to enforce it. So, you know, and you don't want to start waving your banner around.
62. Antonia: No.
63. Daniela: ...every time, you know, and have you done this, and have you done this, did you know it was a legal requirement? But it is in a way just there to put these enforcements into place. But, again, you ... it's more or less you have to find out about that than someone coming to you and saying, did you know you could have this? Did you know you could do that? You know, and that's ... I mean, yeah, it's accessible but no-one really know ... can access it.
64. Mary: Yeah, nobody owns it in a way, yeah.
65. Daniela: ...because ... yeah and no-one knows about it.
66. Antonia: Yeah, and that's usually the case, the employment, what happens is you do the job and then you find the things you can't do, and then they've had to think of ways round that.
67. Mary: Like you said, thinking too late.
68. Antonia: Yes.
69. Mary: ...thinking after, after the event really.
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adjustments barriers disability discrimination everybody facility labelled legislation loads supermarkets
adjustments barriers disability discrimination everybody facility labelled legislation loads supermarkets
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